Afternoon open thread

Happy 59th birthday to Bill Clinton!

This is an open thread.

•  Can we get the 1990s back, Bill?

  Please.  That's why I'm for Hill.  Btw, happy birthday!

  "As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom." - Justice Anthony Kennedy, Lawrence v Texas

  by HillaryGuy on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:01:39 PM PDT

  •  Look at Bill's legacy versus Dubya's

    People remember "hey, Bill got a blow job and lied about it," and "Bill balanced the budget and was respected by the rest of the world...", etc.

    And Dubya?

    Spends most of his time on vacation, is responsible for the death of thousands of Iraqis and almost 2,000 of our soldiers, has bankrupted the country, and can't even ride a bike without falling off.

    by Plutonium Page on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:03:43 PM PDT

    •  nevermind the bike

      a Segway is self-righting.

      by mdhatter on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:08:04 PM PDT

    •  He's only 59?

      Four more years!

      by Steve M on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:31:21 PM PDT

      •  Four more years?

        How bout 8 more years! He was better than all of his predecessors until FDR. Sure he wasn't perfect, but we had the longest economic expansion and all income groups grew, and working people had the biggest gains since the 60s.

        by deaniac20 on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:00:26 PM PDT

        •  You Probably Couldn't Get Those 8 Years

          after giving away media consolidation like that.

          Democracy needs a public square, which in our case we have not got.

          by Gooserock on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:51:57 PM PDT

        •  Sarah Vowell's Assination Vacation

          Is a very interesting book that has one purpose, but along with it, it shows how the party of Abraham Lincoln changes to be the part of Corporate Greed and Big Business between  Lincoln and Mc Kinley. Fascinating story.

          Several of the faceless puppets of the Republican Party were guys who would have prefered to stay where they were, as college professors, and one gave speeches about how much people wastes there most precious resource: leisure time, with vain pursuits and industrialism.

          Except for the intellectual qualties, we seem to have one of these puppets in the White House now.

          History repeats itself huh?

          by Uncle Ho on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:56:44 PM PDT

    •  Not even the bj

      I believe people will eventually forget Lewinsky. Now that Clinton has a library, a best selling auto biography, and a to-be President wife Hillary. Now with Bush to contrast with, people are beginning to remember the economy, and the lack of quagmire wars we were in. His Global initiative will help the legacy. In the end, I think people will see him as a great President, a silent majority likely. Cuz the Clinton haters are so damn loud.

      by deaniac20 on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 05:51:50 PM PDT

    •  Bill got a BJ?

      imma tell!

      by annefrank on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 08:12:04 PM PDT

  •  I don't know

    I know this is unpopular around here, but I actually think Hillary'd be better. She's tougher than he is, I think

    by elsaamo on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:17:23 PM PDT

  •  20,000 kids starved to death every day

    20,000 kids starved to death every day on earth under Bill Clinton's turn as emporer.

    1 million Iraqis died slow painful deaths.

    White people with internet startup connections were better off.

    There was some trickle down.

    by common terry on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:20:54 PM PDT

    •  Emperor Bill?

      Huh? How do you figure Bill Clinton acted like an emperor?  Unlike Georgie who was selected for his first four and it's not clear whether he actually won the second four or not, there's never been any question as to the legitimacy of both of Clinton's wins.  Furthermore, Clinton viewed the world from a grown-up perspective, realizing that other nations are to be dealt with diplomatically, not summarily and childishly dismissed as emperor George is fond of doing.

      by loreilly on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:52:17 PM PDT

      •  Bill Clinton Bombed Iraq

        He did you know.

        by common terry on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:39:54 PM PDT

        •  but not invade

          BIG difference

          by deaniac20 on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 06:30:10 PM PDT

    •  better than the 100000 Iraqis

      who don't even have a CHANCE to starve. We needed to contain Saddam, and we did. Because of the sanctions, he had no WMDS by the time Shrub hit office, and Colin Powell even said so as in MM F9/11. And the UN supported the sanctions, so everyother western nation is behind this "starving"

      by deaniac20 on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:55:48 PM PDT

      •  he number or Iraqis dying every day

        Do to violence between the various faction in Iraq has exceeded 2000 per month every month since the invasion. Right now there is a major crisis in every city with bodies piled in civilian mortuaries stacked so high that they cannot be handled.

        bodies are coming in beheaded, women and children eviscerated.

        Right now the death rate due to the chaos created far exceeds the monthly rate of people impriseond and killed by Saddam regime ober his thirty years by many many times.

        by Uncle Ho on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:08:36 PM PDT

    •  For a good portion of his presidency

      Bill Clinton had a Congress that would not authorize any of his requests for increases in humantarian aid.

      I million people died in Iraq, demands made by the prior administration under UN resolutions not Clintons.

      Clinton approved the Oil for Food Program to attempt deal with it.

      And Clinton brought down the number of children in the United Staes who dies of poverty related conditions to its lowest since Lyndon Johnson started his programs to end poverty (rated ruined by Ronald Reagan) At the end of Clinton's Administration in America, the number of children who died every day was reduced to 27.

      Since 2000 this rate has more almost quintupled in the area of 125 per day.

      It as not that high when Johnson decided to deal with it.

      by Uncle Ho on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:04:46 PM PDT

      •  yeah, there's another bumper sticker...

        'democrats: not perfect; just better'

        by n step on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:10:13 PM PDT

•  The end of August is near!

  OMFG

  by kennyt on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:04:21 PM PDT

  •  What's in the picture?

    I can't make it out. Weed? Coffee? Diamonds?

    by hazzcon on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:08:20 PM PDT

    •  smells like PETA

      that is to say, it looks like some kind of steak.

      by Cedwyn on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:11:21 PM PDT

      •  Buy Oil for Bush

        drive less

        by common terry on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:17:49 PM PDT

      •  Meat

        I am a vegitary sympathizer. I know the world eats too much meat, and our food choices have profound consequences for the environment. But I laughed my ass off when I read a comment from a vegitarian that said, "Anything you can do with a steak, I can do with tofu" or something like that. Someone responded, "'Cept make it taste like a steak." That's when I nearly peed myself.

        by hazzcon on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:24:09 PM PDT

        •  have you ever

          tried tofu with A1 steak sauce..  still tastes like crap..

          by cgvjelly on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:41:11 PM PDT

        •  Come over for dinner Saturday night.

          I can't tell you how many times I've been told by a carnivore, "If you were my personal chef, I would be a vegan."

          by peacemonger on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:27:31 PM PDT

          •  If ANYONE were my personal chef

            I'd eat whatever they fed me. :D

            by hazzcon on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 05:37:27 PM PDT

      •  I assure you, it's not.

        But the second, it is.

        I'm thinking I might ditch the text...

        by kennyt on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 10:08:55 PM PDT

•  I Love Birthday Parties

  Especially pin the tail on the donkey.

  by jpgod on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:06:31 PM PDT

•  Big Candles

  for the Big Dog!!!!
  

  by mdhatter on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:06:55 PM PDT

  •  You want 59 big candles?

    That better be a heck of a big cake!

    by elsaamo on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:17:48 PM PDT

•  He doesn't have a computer...

  ...to read this...but Happy 65th Birthday to my Dad!

  by MichaelPH on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:07:45 PM PDT

•  Rum and Coke August 19th!!!

  I am so proud to say that I share a birthday with President Clinton.  Happy Birthday Mr. President.  I think Friday night is blue dress night across America.

  by jalapeno on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:07:59 PM PDT

  •  Jalapeno + Serrano = Southwest Spicy

    A big Happy Birthday to you, Prez--you were and are the best--don't let these idiot jerks get ya down. What goes around, y'know...your record will ultimately stand as a sterling example next to this foolish idiot.  Jalapeno, Happy Day 2 u, too--you've got the name I wanted and use in other forums...oh, well, takes more than one chile to stimulate the palate---Salud!

    by serrano on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:16:35 PM PDT

    •  Next Year in Jerusalem!

      Btw, Bad Bill, here's hoping that by the time u celebrate your 60th, we'll be on our way to putting Dems back in charge so we can begin to clean up all this mess of War, deficits, and corruption and injustice this fool has left in his trike trail....

      by serrano on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:20:20 PM PDT

•  HEY what about me?

  it's MY birthday too ya know...

  also Orville Wright I think

  by RumsfeldResign on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:12:04 PM PDT

  •  You turned 59 today too?

    Well then, happy birthday :)

    by Cleveland Dem on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:15:43 PM PDT

  •  have a happy one

    hooray, hooray, hooray, hooray,
    today, today, is your birthday
    hooray, hooray, hooray, hooray,
    today, today, is your birthday

    it's not the beaver's or the bear's
    it's not the pickle's or the pear's
    it's not next week or yesterday
    today, today, is you birhthday

    hooray, hooray, hooray, hooray,
    today, today, is your birthday

    Sung to you in perfect pitch by

    Sodalis

    (hope you enjoy)

    by sodalis on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:20:34 PM PDT

  •  Yeay!

    Happy birthday to you... and to my pops too.  Born 08/19/46, same as our Bill.

    By the way, I wouldn't even know the year if my dad weren't such a guy and uses his birth year in his email usernames.  :)

    by leanakin on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 05:58:09 PM PDT

•  DannyNC

  POLL
  My local station has a poll:
  http://www.wral.com/news/4865593/detail.html
  Do you support the anti-war vigils sparked by the demonstration outside President George W. Bush's Texas ranch?
  Yes.
  No.

  I can't believe it is 50/50 right now. Who the hell is against free speech?!

  by DannyNC on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:13:26 PM PDT

  •  Um, I think we know the answer to that one.

    by The New Politeness on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:15:54 PM PDT

  •  Consider it freeped

    This is a wholly appropriate situation for freepage.

    by hazzcon on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:30:10 PM PDT

  •  IMHO

    I think that nearly 50% of any society is not comfortable with confrontation and/or protest regardless of the issue.  People tend to be apathetic when they enjoy a high standard of living and would prefer not to see things like a protest.  On a more positive note, 50% are supporting the protest, so we've got that going for us.  

    For the record, I'm a left-wing active duty Soldier (SFC, US Army) that supported and continues to support liberating and freeing Iraq.  That being said, BushCo essentially took the blue-print on how NOT to wage a war and win the peace and ran with it.  He's a monumental failure and would be over his head as a Dairy Queen assistant night manager in charge of sugar cones.

    by Snydog66 on Sat Aug 20, 2005 at 08:57:17 AM PDT

•  Now its 49% yes/51% no n/t

  by Omen on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:14:41 PM PDT

•  happy birthday, mr. president...

  happy birthday to yoooouuuuuooooo!

  i'd say "birthday spankings!" but i'm sure those useless prigs have had you under constant surveillance and we wouldn't want to cause a ruckus.

  i can't say i agreed with everything you did, but you were a damn fine president, even when the criteria goes beyond simple comparisons to bush.  thank you for a wonderful eight years!

  by Cedwyn on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:17:35 PM PDT

•  missing Bill

  every time I see him on the television  I just stop what I am doing to sit and listen to the comforting sound of his voice.  He makes such eloquent sense to me.  He does not violate the English language, he sincerely knows foreign policy and world issues inside and out, and he genuinely cares about mankind and the injustices that take place in the world.  God, I miss Bill Clinton.  May he have a very happy 59th and many more, too.

  by panicbean on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:20:35 PM PDT

  •  He was a great speaker

    I almost tear up whenever I see one of his speeches from the White House days. It was just wonderful to have an intelligent, funny, well-read President speak to us on issues of importance and on our behalf to the world.

    Big, big Happy Birthday, Mr. President.

    by aggressiveprogressive on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:37:25 PM PDT

  •  Agreed

    It is comforting to listen to someone who speaks like an adult and gives a damn about people all over the world.

    5 years ago seems like a very long time.

    by HugoDog on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:17:16 PM PDT

•  Yay

  I'm so glad I didn't post in the last OT.  Every time I do a new one pops up.

  Anyway, I just posted this at the SF Kossack page, but:

  I'm a Los Angeleno and I'll be up there for Labor Day weekend (Sept.
  1st - Sept. 6th). This will be my 2nd trip to SF since moving here in
  1980 (first time was last year). We're looking for some family
  friendly non-touristy things to do. I have a 2 year old and I'm 6
  months pregnant so the last thing I want to do is walk a lot. So any
  tips will be helpful.

  Also, we still need to book our hotel and I remember that there was a
  strike going on with some hotels. Is that still going on? If so,
  which hotels where affected?

  TIA!
  

  BTW, if anyone has any info as to why the dkos HTML extention is no longer working, please let me know.  I got spoiled not having to type out my code.  

  by fabooj on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:22:46 PM PDT

•  know just where he's going

  for the after-party

  

  by thirdparty on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:23:32 PM PDT

  •  lol

    That's a great graphic.

    He was a good president, but I sure wish Monica hadn't talked.  What they did in private was their own business, but she was young, and impressed, and...

    ... the rest is history.

    At least no one died because of those blowjobs.  Some sperm, maybe.

    by Plutonium Page on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:28:12 PM PDT

    •  I actually never voted for him

      I was too young in 92.

      By 96, I was utterly disgusted with his rightward lurch. Voted my username.

      He was an OK president. But he accomplished so little of what I had envisioned in 92. And I can't help but look back on the 90s as a squandered decade in many ways.

      But who doesn't love the guy on some level?

      by thirdparty on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:36:09 PM PDT

      •  Ditto to almost everything you said

        except that I was in the hospital on election day in 1996, so I didn't vote (d'oh).

        I have plenty of issues with both husband and wife Clinton, but I sure hate Bush more than I could ever dislike either of them.

        I'm a gun person (ok, that sounds weird - I'm a 2nd Amendment Democrat, that's better), so I'm not very excited about the Clintons' gun control stance, along with their stance on the drug war.

        Guess I'm more of a libertarian-leaning Dem more than anything else.

        But, like you said, who doesn't love the guy on some level?

        And I just thought it would be fun to wish him a happy birthday.

        Did you know that he almost became a professional musician?

        He sure can play the sax.

        by Plutonium Page on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:55:06 PM PDT

        •  In his book Clinton said that

          gun control is a mistake and a bad issue for Democrats.  Hillary is NOT anti-gun.  In fact, I bet you dollars to donuts that she will come out decidedly on the libertarian pro-2nd amendment side on this debate.

          I am pro-gun too and loved Dean last time because he was pro-gun.  Hillary'll be fine.  You'll see.

          by HillaryGuy on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:04:34 PM PDT

        •  2d amendment

          was passed when muskets were the standard issue for militia. I'm all for every National Guardsperson owning their own musket. And, for the NG, even armory-stored M-16s. But for hunting? Can you imagine what a 30 cal. weapon would do to a deer? Would there be anything left to eat? And how about an UZI for pheasant hunting, it'd be a great ego trip to turn a pheasant into a blizzard of feathers, wouldn't it!

          Question isn't about hunting, tho. It's about urban life, not a salient feature of the 1780's. Question is, what forms of weaponry are you prepared for urban gangs to possess?
          

          by davelf2 on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:33:00 PM PDT

          •  great idea!

            If I ever started a rock band, it would be called "Feather Blizzard and the Uzis"

            Thanks.

            by Snydog66 on Sat Aug 20, 2005 at 09:00:31 AM PDT

      •  yah, well...

        voted for him the first time; didn't the second - at the time, i thought waco was kindova weird scene, and otherwise just felt politically blase by then.

        didn't vote for gore in 2k, 'cuz i thought he was a shoe-in... '-no way- another bush will get elected...'

        sigh. i'll never be that young and naive again. (not like the vote counted... but really, if every non-voter voted, no way they could've faked it... no way they could hide behind shaved numbers.)

        by n step on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:18:16 PM PDT

    •  And consider the Cindy factor

      I've oft thought, if Clinton had been in the place Dubya is now (he wouldn't be, but work with me on this), faced with the kind of visible protest challenge he'd be facing from the analogy to a Cindy Sheehan (oh, I don't know--imagine if it had been the mother of someone who'd died in the Waco David Koresh compound siege), do you think he'd hide out on Martha's Vineyard, avoiding her and her gathering group of like-minded supporters?

      Hell no.  He'd do what Clinton does best--meet with her right away, pouring on the human touch, as much in the spotlight as the locally assembled MSM corps wanted.  When he was done, 45 minutes later, he'd completely appear to be on the right side of the issue, at least in terms of compassion and open-mindedness.

      Dubya can't do that--both in terms of can't as in he isn't capable of it organically, and can't in terms of not being allowed.  This is why a Cindy Sheehan has him dead to rights, and why the otherwise silly-souning notion of "she's doing all of this just because she wants to have a meeting with the president" is so powerful--she's asking a simple thing, but the one thing he can't deliver.  That's what makes Sheehan's gambit so incredibly brilliant.

      And for all of my criticism of his missed opportunities at the time, it's why the Clinton presidency seems like it wasn't just last century, but really a century ago.
      

      by waytac on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:59:30 PM PDT

      •  Remember Somalia?

        I read My Life, and Bill not only met with a parent of a dead kid from Black Hawk Down, he let him curse him out and tell him he shouldn't be commander in chief. Those were dead wrong comments, but Clinton actually took it. Shrub runs like a monkey into the motorcade to raise more coporate money. Thats the difference between Shrub and the Big Dog. Ones a man, the other is a pussy. The pussy being the former.

        by deaniac20 on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:05:00 PM PDT

    •  Seen in the latest Rolling Stone:

      I don't remember the author:

      "If Monica had swallowed, we'd all be able to keep our shoes on at the airport"

      by Nonie3234 on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:19:37 PM PDT

•  On the funny side

  To lighten your day, from Media Monitors Network International - Ireland:

  Diary of a Madman :: Excerpts from important new documents ::
  by John Chuckman
  (Friday August 19 2005)

  "Goddam that woman!!! Can't she see I'm having my vacation? Jeez, I'm the War President and Commander in Chief of this here whole United States. Ain't I entitled to a little R and R without being bothered? I get mighty tired spending ten and half months a year being President. Talking to damn foreigners and asshole reporters, trying not to doze off in briefings I couldn't give a shit about, staying up past nine o'clock and missing my favorite T.V. shows. God, they ought to know I never held down a regular job in my life!"

  Ever so much more here:

  [http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/17938]

  by Overseas on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:24:33 PM PDT

•  "Big Dog"

  was Bill Clinton's Secret Service codename.  "Timberwolf" was Bush Sr.'s codename.

  I wonder what Dubya's official codename is?

  Unofficially, I'm sure the Secret Service has a bunch of names for him...

  by Plutonium Page on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:26:41 PM PDT

  •  pretzel nt

    by marjo on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:47:05 PM PDT

  •  Fearless Leader

    but then they are just being sarcastic and he doesn't know it.

    by Pandora on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 03:29:26 PM PDT

  •  Tard

    by YetiMonk on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 03:56:00 PM PDT

•  Phillies Allow Anti-Gay Sign at Gay Community Day

  The Philadelphia Phillies allowed an anti-gay fundamentalist group to unfurl a banner that read: "Homosexuality is Sin. Christ Can Set You Free." This happened during Gay Community Night! The team said the banner didn't constiute "fighting words."

  But the team, which upheld the group's First Amendment rights, wouldn't let a reporter from Outsports.com to interview the protesters.

  Outsports link:
  http://outsports.com/baseball/2005/0819philsgayday.htm

  by JTB in LA on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:26:48 PM PDT

  •  Who cares?

    Philadelphia is a good liberal city, where even the GOP nominee for mayor in 2003 was trumpeting his endorsement by gay organizations.

    by misterblaine on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:46:40 PM PDT

    •  I Care

      Imagine the reaction if the Phillies allowed the KKK to unfurl a banner during a night honoring the NAACP. Another sign that gay civil rights are considered less than by many.

      by JTB in LA on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:50:34 PM PDT

      •  But the people of Philadelphia

        don't support the position of the anti-gay bigots. Why get upset if a small handful of screwballs and bozos say something that nobody agrees with?

        by misterblaine on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:54:41 PM PDT

•  Computer help.

  The desktop started making wierd clicking noises, and so I tried re-booting.  Now I get the message that it needs a boot diskette for drive A. What do I do?

  by Newsie8200 on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:33:15 PM PDT

  •  eek

    If it is still under warrenty call tech support.

    If I had to make a hunch you have a hard drive failure, but it is eceedingly difficult to troubleshoot computer issues in this forum.

    by Love and Death on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:16:37 PM PDT

  •  and you are

    posting this how?

    by YetiMonk on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 03:54:34 PM PDT

•  Frist

  Christ on a cross, will somebody revoke his medical license for advocating ID in the classroom?

  by HunkeredDown on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:33:59 PM PDT

•  Drudge: What a whore

  Not a fucking peep out of that idiot about Ohio Gov. Graft

  by wwwsmitty2004 on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:36:54 PM PDT

•  Can someone verify this Sheehan slander?

  This was posted on DU:
  

  skip fox
  Fox & Friends sleaze on Cindy Sheehan 8/19 (Cindy and the blind cleric)!

  Early this a.m. I heard Brian Kimeade on Fox and Friends say that Cindy Sheehan supported the blind Islamic cleric jailed on the charges of the earlier bombing of the WTT (1993), and that it was her who was trying to get the cleric-terrorist's "hate-filled speech" out to the rest of us. I've never heard this before, but I'll swear by it.

  Interestingly, they won't even put it in writing. Here's what Kimeade has on his blog this afternoon:

  <snip>

  I am amazed at the media frenzy around Cindy Sheehan's . . . quest to talk again with President Bush about the loss of her son in Iraq. Casey, her son was killed in April and soon after she met with and was quoted to have been happy with the president's attitude as he offered her condolences. Now, she is making her stay in Crawford a huge vigil to pull the troops out of Iraq. It's causing her family, including her grandmothers, aunt and godmother, to say she is using her son's death to fuel her anti-war agenda and gain promotion. Other grieving parents have lined up against her saying it sullying their kids' service to run down the cause. . . .

  <snip>

  Is this a new tactic? Smear someone on a broadcast and then never put it in print? They can trot it out on Friday and then hammer it all weekend (with few investigative sources like Franken's to rebut) and by Monday it will sound like common knowledge.

  Are we getting had right now??
  

  Did anyone else hear this?
  

  by iconoclastic cat on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:44:58 PM PDT

•  Revamped joke, sent to me this PM

  A tourist walked into a curio shop in San Francisco. Looking around at the exotic, he noticed a very lifelike, life-sized bronze statue of a rat.

  It had no price tag but was so striking he decided he must have it. He took it up to the owner, "How much for the bronze rat?"

  "Twelve dollars for the rat. One hundred dollars for the story," said the owner.

  The tourist gave the man twelve dollars. "I'll just take the rat. You can keep the story."

  As he walked down the street carrying his bronze rat, he noticed that a few real rats had crawled out of the alleys and sewers and began following him down the street. This was disconcerting; he
  began walking faster.

  But within a couple blocks, the herd of rats behind him had grown to hundreds, and they began squealing. He began to trot toward the bay,
  looking around to see that the rats now numbered in the MILLIONS, and were squealing and coming toward him fast. Scared, he ran to the edge of the bay and threw the bronze rat as far out into
  the bay as he could.

  Amazingly, the millions of rats all jumped into the bay after it, and drowned.

  The man walked back to the curio shop. "Aha," said the owner, "you have come back for the story?"

  "No," said the man. "I came back to see if you have a Bronze Republican."

  (I originally heard it as a bronze lawyer.)

  by Hastur on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:45:32 PM PDT

•  FREEP THE AOL CINDY POLL - she is losing

  http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050818095409990040&ncid=NWS

  by jgkojak on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:49:01 PM PDT

  •  Did you notice the radio tags switched from poll

    question to poll results?

    When asking the questions - "yes" is the top radio button choice and "no" is the bottom choice for each of the two questions. Yet when the results get posted, "no" statistics are on top and "yes" statistics are on bottom.

    It sure looks suspicious. I've never seen that happen before (where the final order is different or opposite from the initial order).

    Does someone know how to check it out to verify how the votes are counted?

     

    by slouisemay on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:25:15 PM PDT

    •  This one is suspicious

      Yesterday the numbers didn't budge the whole day.

      I'm certain that a few Kossacks would have at least swayed it a point or so.

      by hopesprings on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:06:43 PM PDT

•  1 month before Cindy conservative wants the truth

  Surprisingly there were no tar and feathers, no digging dirt and relentless evaluation of what Cohen has ever said in his life..

  Daily Kos: Conservative Pundit said the same as Cindy: As a soldier's father I want the truth

  by lawnorder on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:53:30 PM PDT

•  I heard on MSNBC

  or at least I think it was MSNBC, someone make a passing remark about a peace march on Washington sometime in Sept.  Has anyone else hear about this?  Where can I find out more/sign up?

  by Matilda on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:54:19 PM PDT

  •  I haven't heard about it

    but if it's true, I'd like to organize a parallel peace march in Amsterdam.

    There are plenty of American expats (some with Democrats Abroad) who always get revved up for stuff like that, as well as many of the Dutch.

    And the cops are pretty cool with protests and peace marches.

    Everywhere is a "free speech zone", you just have to make sure you notify them ahead of time, that there's going to be a march, so they can help with traffic (bicyles as well as cars).

    by Plutonium Page on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 12:58:33 PM PDT

  •  Here you Go !!

    http://www.pdamerica.org/

    Now my question - does anyone know what the BAY AREA will be doing here instead of Wash, D.C.?

    Links?

    Barbara Lee at her town hall recently mentioned a protest at the SF Federal Building????

    by AustinSF on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:01:53 PM PDT

    •  Oh PDA > Progressive Democrats of America

      this is their website. Suggest everyone take a look. All most all of the Dem Leaders we see here on KOS belong to this. If you did not know - the Progressive Democratic Caucus is now the largest of the Democratic Caucuses - FYI.

      by AustinSF on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:05:23 PM PDT

    •  Thank you! n/t

      by Matilda on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:05:48 PM PDT

  •  It's Sept 24th

    I think...don't know who is organizing.

    by hopesprings on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:50:00 PM PDT

    •  The organizers

      are ANSWER and United for Peace and Justice.

      http://www.unitedforpeace.org/

      by KibbutzAmiad on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:18:42 PM PDT

•  Is anyone going

  to DC for the Sept 24-26 anti war rally? thought I'd check to see if any Kossacks are going and would like to meet up...

  by crkrjx on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:04:13 PM PDT

•  Ack! Diary overload!

  I'm a fast reader, quick clicker, and I have a broadband connection at work and at home. But there's no way I can keep up with the diaries as they scroll by. I'm sure I'm missing some real gems. Meanwhile, I'm sorting through scores of poorly written, redundant, or otherwise mediocre diaries.

  Help me out.

  Is this:

  1. A huge problem! Let's raise the diary posting threshhold!
     
  2. A good thing! We're growing! Yay! More content than we can possibly digest!
     
  3. A sign that peacemonger is hopelessly out of touch. The point is to post madly, and hope to win the "Recommended" lottery!

  If it's a problem, even a small one, how do we solve it? Perhaps with a more complex rating system for diaries, or perhaps by only allowing trusted users to post, or to post more than once a day.

  by peacemonger on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:10:30 PM PDT

•  Walken for Pres - true or not????

  For those who have not yet heard: http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/walken.asp

  by Nonie3234 on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:14:06 PM PDT

•  Judith Miller's guru

  Salon's War Room has an item about Laurie Mylroie who co-authored a book on Iraq with Miller and works at the American Enterprise Institute.

  Mylroie has long blamed Saddam for all, and I mean all, terrorist attacks and she is a favorite of Cheney, Scooter Libby, and Wolfowitz.

  She seems key to getting everything wrong in Iraq.

  by Maynard G Krebs on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:17:32 PM PDT

•  PLEASE RECOMMEND THIS DIARY

  ok - if we had to endure all the 2008 talk yesterday - we need to have this discussion today. PLEASE RECOMMEND. thanks....

  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/19/155435/278

  by AustinSF on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:22:10 PM PDT

•  NEW WMD WHISTLE BLOWER

  Former aide to Colin Powell...
  
  

  by DailyDissenter on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:23:31 PM PDT

•  looking for science friday

  hey page, where's our science friday at?

  here's my contribution for today:
  

  Gold of 4200-Year-Old Civilization Uncovered in Bulgaria

  
  (AP photo via the Houston Chronicle)

  Bulgarian archaeologists have unearthed about 15,000 tiny golden pieces that date to the end of the third millennium B.C. -- a find they said Wednesday matches the famous treasure of Troy.

  The golden ornaments, estimated to be between 4,100 and 4,200 years old, have been unearthed gradually during the past year from an ancient tomb near the central village of Dabene, about 75 miles east of the capital, Sofia...

  The Bulgaria treasure consists of miniature golden rings, some so finely crafted that the point where the ring is welded is invisible with an ordinary microscope.

  "We don't know who these people were, but we call them proto-Thracians," Nikolov said.

  more news from Sofia... be sure to check out the pic there (i don't think i can hotlink it).

  by zeke L on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:32:12 PM PDT

•  Woof, Big Dog

  

  Happy Birthday, Mr. President

  by Caldonia on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:41:16 PM PDT

•  Roberts is about More Power for POTUS!!!!

  Not enough material for a diary...and really HAVE to get back to the writing, but
  wanted to point this out to someone today:

  In today's NY Times, an article about Roberts reveals some of his opinions from various just released Reagan documents (no, they still aren't releasing the Bush Elder ones).

  I hate his positions on voting rights, women's rights, discrimination, among other things...but this ONE line says it all to me - this is the reason he's being nominated:

  On other issues, Roberts:

  --Advised senior officials not to try to circumvent the will of Congress when it established a nationwide 55 mph speed limit.

  Roberts is going to go in there and, if given the chance, expand POTUS'spowers during wartime.  

  IMHO.

  by hopesprings on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:48:12 PM PDT

•  So

  what's the deal with Israel pulling out of Gaza? Is it strategic? For instance, what if it is in preparation for an attack on Iran. Clearly Sharon wouldn't want Israelis unprotected in Arab areas to face retribution.

  by ProgressivePrinciple on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 01:48:31 PM PDT

•  I wish you guys would quit sucking Clinton's dick.

  Yeah, the guy was better than Bush. So what? His ass-kissing approach to Republicans is what makes the Democratic party so pitiful. What are Democrats in Washington doing right now except "triangulating," trying to figure out how to position themselves to take advantage of Bush's fuck-ups without sticking their necks out.

  We need fresh blood in this party, not looking back with stars in our eyes at a guy who only managed to win in the first place because Perot took 18% of the vote. Clinton betrayed progressives over and over and over again. Sure, he shouldn't have been impeached for having sex with an intern. But just the fact that he would be so reckless as to put everything serious he was supposedly working for at risk for something so stupid certainly doesn't speak well for him.

  All this Clinton nostalgia is misplaced. He was a moderate Republican and he used us and his moderate Republican wife will use us just the same if she gets a chance.

  Wake the fuck up and take Clinton's dick out of your mouths.

  by CheeseMoose on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:06:11 PM PDT

  •  Five words:

    Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer.  When it comes to civil rights it's all about the Supreme Court, baby.  That's why, as a gay man, I never get worked up about DOMA.  Because civil rights are always decided by the SCOTUS.  As long as we have a Democrat appointing good people to the Court, this country will be fine...domestically at least.

    "As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom." - Justice Anthony Kennedy, Lawrence v Texas

    by HillaryGuy on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:13:07 PM PDT

  •  Uncivil and offensive n/t

    by babbitt on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 03:04:03 PM PDT

•  Yeck to Bill Clinton. He's the one the got

  us liberals in the mess we're in.

  by MilwMom on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:11:03 PM PDT

  •  This is Bill's fault?!

    That's sooo funny!  Last I checked, Dubya and his goons have put our country into one horrific mess.  Stop blaming Clinton for everything.  That is just absurd.

    by Barbara H on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:20:19 PM PDT

    •  Barbara, I hold Clinton entirely responsible

      for the cotton stuffed in swing voters ears.  He behaved terribly.  He was as unwilling to be accountable for his flaws as the current crud in the  White House.  Yeah, his flaws didn't get anyone killed, but he sure as hell allowed his continued lie to polarize this nation.  Come 2000, Al Gore could not even confidently align himself with low-class personna Clinton had become.

      Sex doesn't matter, but the lie and its perpetuation did.  That was Clinton's character flaw.

      by MilwMom on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:50:25 PM PDT

      •  Agree

        The character issue turned swing voters against Gore and gave us W...and Iraq.

        by Moderate Vet on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 03:19:40 PM PDT

        •  They changed

          the rules on him midstream.  Affairs were not fair game until Clinton's presidency.  What really turned public opinion was the right wing noise machine.  We just didn't have an effective defense against it.  

          by YetiMonk on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 03:50:00 PM PDT

          •  Wrong. He wagged a finger and lied

            to cover up his shame.

            by MilwMom on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:18:52 PM PDT

            •  So Kenneth Star and

              the right wing noise machine didn't have anything to do with it?  Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1 didn't wag their fingers or lie?  Each one had major blood on their hands, wagged their finger and lied, and got away with it.

              As to presidential affairs, never has a president had to answer questions on that.  That's personal business and should not have to be answered.  I repeat, should not have to be answered.  Why are you hung up on the "lie" thing?

              What pushed this over the edge was the rights noise machine.  The least impeachable offence possible of all the last 6 presidents is what they nailed Clinton with.  

              by YetiMonk on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:29:34 PM PDT

      •  No one has behaved worse that W

        no one in recent memory since Nixon.

        Perhaps with the state were, the swing voters will return, unless they are pleased with the jon theis administration is doing.  

        Bush Lies.  People Die.  

        Go ahead and blame Clinton.  I prefer to take action to try to get our country back on track.  

        by Barbara H on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 03:33:02 PM PDT

        •  Nope. You going the wrong direction.

          I'm just not going to fete the man's b-day.

          by MilwMom on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 03:35:49 PM PDT

          •  taking our country back is not the wrong

            direction.  Neither is having an opinion.  Did I like what Clinton did?  No.  But I don't find Clinton's lie as horrific as the lame asses who voted for W instead of Gore. There simply is no comparison.  

            If you want to blame Clinton for all the trouble, that is your choice.  If people were that blinded by Monica-gate versus all the good that Clinton did for 8 years, then they deserve exactly what they get:  8 years of Dubya and lots of death and destruction.

            This is just such an old, tired debate about Clinton, that I'm sorry I visited his birthday thread.

            Happy Birthday, Bill!  

            by Barbara H on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 03:42:09 PM PDT

            •  You're misunderstanding me

              Take the country back, fine.  Clinton is not to blame for Bush and the foul repubs sins.

              But, Clinton IS to blame for pissing independents and Democrats off.

              by MilwMom on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:16:58 PM PDT

              •  I understand...

                sorry for any miscommunication or misunderstanding.

                by Barbara H on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:25:53 PM PDT

            •  You're misunderstanding me

              Take the country back, fine.  Clinton is not to blame for Bush and the foul repubs sins.

              But, Clinton IS to blame for pissing independents and Democrats off and providing tinder to the whacked out republicans.

              by MilwMom on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:17:32 PM PDT

              •  Clinton was getting hounded

                throughout his presidency...even before it, with the 60 Minutes interview, Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones and the Ark. State Troopers...YET he still needed to get his dick wet by some strange...He is smart, a Rhodes Scholar, but he has NO common sense, no Street Sense...he is a country bumpkin to think he would get away with it, when the right was on his back for everything...very disappointing...  

                by Moderate Vet on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 05:53:32 PM PDT

              •  Scalia, Thomas, O'Connor, Kennedy, and Rehnquist?

                What about the 12/12(day democracy died) Gang of Five?. First and foremost, regardless of other factors, they are the reason Shrub is in the White House. Blame what you want, but don't forget the 12/12 Gang of Five. They are the MAIN reason we got the shit we have today.

                But forgetting the 12/12 Gang of Five, lets look at Nader. we can thank this egotistical douche for making people, who otherwise would have voted for Gore over Bush by 36-24-40(not vote) not vote for Gore, and taking away states from Gore. Don't forget, Gore had 267 EV. A state his 3 EV MINIMUM. Any other state in the union woulda put him in the WH, but Nader gave those to Shrub.

                On to Big Dog: Clinton's approval ratings were in the 60's. Gore didn't have to run off Clinton the husband, but he shoulda AT LEAST run off a record. He didn't have his record in ONE commercial. Thats right. A VP of a President who has 60 percent approval ratings and 22 million jobs and American peace, and he doesn't even say "as Vice President, we had, did " or ANYTHING. He coudla reminded swing voters how good a job he did, and they woulda forgotten Lewinsky. But not reminding them of it kept her on some of their minds. He also went out and picked a Democrat who attacked the President of his party for a totally personal affair? He picked a running mate who alienates young voters by censoring music and video games, who is one of the most conservative Dems I have seen?  He is the biggest reason IMO people voted for Nader. Gore screwed himself, Clinton didn't.

                Ralph Nader said after the election "Gore beat Gore". Gore supporters said "Nader beat Gore" They all say the Supreme Court beat Gore. I say all three "The Surpeme Court, Nader, and Gore beat Gore."

                Now I like Gore a lot, and now that he has embraced liberal causes and abanded DLC likes of Lieberman and embraced Dean, I would love to see him make another run. I just think he got caught up in listening to the DLC in 2000, but nevertheless, he listened.

                by deaniac20 on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 06:07:18 PM PDT

                •  Man....

                  The fact that you do not mention Clinton being RESPONSIBLE for anything (his own actions or Gore's loss) and blaming all these other issues that would not have occured in the first place if Clinton had any foresight and sense of responsiblity, is remarkable.

                  by Moderate Vet on Sat Aug 20, 2005 at 09:32:24 AM PDT

                  •  It wasn't Clinton's campaign

                    It was Al Gore's campaign. He ruined it himself. Clinton didn't. What Clinton did do is get Al Gore known to America. Had Al Gore not been the veep under Bill Clinton, he woulda had no shot. George Bush had all the charisma, Gore was a bore that campaign. No one cared about him before he became Veep, except political junkies, like you and I. The fact is it doesn't matter what Clinton did, Gore was the one campaigning.

                    by deaniac20 on Sat Aug 20, 2005 at 01:15:10 PM PDT

  •  Yeah!

    Until Clinton, in my voting life, we had
    

    • Nixon in 72
      
    • Carter in 76 !
      
    • Reagan in 80
      
    • Reagan in 84
      
    • Bush in 88

    Then Clinton went and ruined things for us liberals.

    by Elwood Dowd on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:23:39 PM PDT

    •  Ruined what?

      by Barbara H on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:26:33 PM PDT

      •  Irony-poor blood? (n/t)

        by Elwood Dowd on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:38:06 PM PDT

    •  hehe yeah, good one :)

      a little sick of the 'it's his/our/liberal's fault' bs, in any form. i agree dems aren't much better than reps, but they -are- better.

      and sadly, this is a very binary country politically - the simplest 'choice', because people -just don't think politics -really- have anything to do with their lives- (except for that -one- issue they 'really care about' - usually s.s. or abortion).

      sad, that. so they don't make time for anything but 'bubba jr. vs. 'insert liberal here'.

      sadly, their game has always been 'style over substance', or more accurately, 'LIES over substance'...

      really, no more pissing-your-pants 'but i don't have -my- perfect candidate, so i don't vote and i'm proud of it' bullshit, folks. you'll -never- get someone you agree with 100%. -NEVER.-

      so start -acting proactively,- and instead of doing nothing 'cuz 'it won't be perfect', start actioning for 'better'. and repeat. teach it to your kids, and go to your grave happy that at least people are -trying- to make things -better,- and you actually -did something about it!!!!!-

      </soapbox>

      by n step on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:38:21 PM PDT

    •  I know

      Nixon, Reagan x2, and Bush really HELPED liberals, and the Democrat hurt them. Hmm, lets look at the Presidential Results and Democratic victory margins:

      1972: Nixon (R) 60.7%      -24%
            McGovern: 36%

      1976: Carter (D): 50.6%    +2.6%    
            Ford: 48%

      1980: Reagan (R): 50.1%    -9%
            Carter: 41.2%

      1984: Reagan (R): 59%      -18%
            Mondale: 41%

      1988: Bush I (R): 53.9%   -7.9%
            Dukakis: 46%

      1992: Clinton (D): 42%    +5%
            Bush I: 37%
            Perot: 18%

      1996: Clinton (D): 49.9%  +9.1%
            Dole: 40.8%
            Perot: 10%

      2000: Gore (D): 48.2% +.5%
            Bush II: 47.7%

      OK losing all those elections before Clinton REALLY helped us liberals! God I hate when people say Clinton hurt the Democratic Party. It is such bullshit. And don't give me that Perot made Clinton win. First of all, the exit polls on election night of 92 and 96 showed Clinton still woulda win, minus a few electoral votes. http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/elections/natl.exit.poll/index1.html look at the question "Vote without Perot" and Clinton still wins by a landslide. 92 also showed how Perot syphoned form Clinton http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=19921026
      The myth Clinton woulda lost without Perot is a myth peddled by right wing media. Perot was not a conservative, he was a liberal. he was against NAFTA, for gay rights and abortion rights, and was going to raise taxes to cut the deficit. Perot has no effect on the election of 92 and 96. Don't forget that 2004 was the first time in 19 years a GOPer won the popular vote for President. of the last 5 elections we won the election  2 time, well 3 really. Clinton had to move the party to the middle on crime and welfare. We could no longer go on as the party that lets women live off it, and the party which "tolerates crime" Sure NAFTA was bad, but had we not nominated him, we woulda had President Quayles last term just finished. Not to mention all the 22 million jobs we wouldn't have had. Don't forget the family leave act, the motor voter, the brady bill, loan reform that Bush senior vetoed.  so stop saying Clinton hurt the party. he is the one who made us viable as a presidential party again by balancing the budget and making us look like we can be trusted with money. He made us look like we can keep the streets safe. He proved it could all be done while saving SS, and medicare, and the progressive bills he signed as President minus NAFTA. He compromised too much, bet he was still a great President.

      by deaniac20 on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 06:28:37 PM PDT

      •  So Clinton is

        responsible for the dot com era?

        by Moderate Vet on Sat Aug 20, 2005 at 09:35:41 AM PDT

        •  and that has to do with?

          Your sounding like are a freeper. I've heard that lame talking point before, that the dotcom era made all those jobs come. But if so, now that we are in the cable modem era, the internet has expanded, and we not only have the internet on comps, we have them on TVs, and phones, and beepers, why aren't any jobs being created? After all, a new invention should create jobs according to you. Most conservative economists don't even try using that internet economy talking point. The internet wasn't even that big until the end of the Clinton years, like 1998 on. The stock market bubble didn't even exist until then, but Clinton had been there since 1993. Look here http://www.kiplingerforecasts.com/economic_outlook/tables/employment/unemployment_annual.htm In 1993, we had a two million job gain, and the internet was still extremely marginal then. Look at other Presidents, when they had those job numbers Clinton had? Were new inventions necessarily coming out in 1978, when we had 4 million new jobs? NO, it was because for most of his presidency, Carter could create jobs.  

          My argument just completely whiped the floor with that arguments ass. Just read this http://www.dickinson.edu/~rudaleva/greenspan.htm Nevermind the bold text on Greenspan because that is just how Dickinson University put it on the site. It shows how Clinton brought back the economy. Remember Reagan and Bush I? Like I said, inventions do not influence most job creation.

          by deaniac20 on Sat Aug 20, 2005 at 12:37:54 PM PDT

•  Happy B-day Bill

  oh how i wish you where in office today.

  by dieharddemocrat on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:24:03 PM PDT

•  Parkhill Grill update

  There was a diary a couple of days ago about a New Jersey restaurant that -- instead of noting table numbers on checks -- used descriptions of the customers. A spokesman for the restaurant suggested that a server might note "Blue jacket". One couple dining there noticed that their check was noted, "Jew Couple."

  This practice seemed pretty foolish. We wondered that it hadn't caused a problem before.

  It had -- meet "Dirty Joanne."

  by Elwood Dowd on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:34:10 PM PDT

•  Where are all the ribbons?

  Hey, driving to work and around today, I noticed something odd - no "Support the Troops" ribbons on anybody's car. Used to be just about every other car around here had one on. What's up? Cindy Sheehan effect?

  by apsmith on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:40:36 PM PDT

  •  y'know, that's kinda ironically sad...

    i'd rather they keep the ribbons, and add a 'support cindy/bring them home' sticker/ribbon next to it. (preferably to cover up the 'w' sticker they  also presumably have...)

    by n step on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:42:57 PM PDT

•  President Clinton

  Today is his 59th Birthday and I don't think I seen a better president in my 20 years, I don't think that he did one thing that I disagreeded with and here is a list of all his accomplishments for all to see the glory that is President Clinton:
  Reducing the federal deficit, Americorps, School-to-Work Program, NAFTA, The Brady Bill, The Assault Weapons Ban, A cease-fire in Northern Ireland, A Peace Agreement between Israel and Palestine, 22 million new jobs, Welfare reform, and increased minimum wage, The Family an Medical Leave Act, Violent Crime control and Law Enforcement Act, Anti-terrorism and Effective Death Penalty act,

  by SensibleDemocrat on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 02:57:30 PM PDT

  •  Uh...

    you're pro-NAFTA?

    by Bensch on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 03:27:18 PM PDT

  •  cmon

    He did a great job, no doubt, and I'd vote for him again.  But NAFTA?  What about all the job outsourcing?  It didnt start with Bush, he just turned it into the uncontrolled flood that it is now.  I have a serious bone to pick with Bill on this front.

    by YetiMonk on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 03:45:55 PM PDT

    •  Actually, it began with Reagan

      Reagan and Bush senior were the beginning of the outsourcing flood. Remember the Canada Free Trade Agreement? That shit got Mulroney outta office. So don't blame Bill for outsourcing. Even tho he signed NAFTA, negociated by Shrub the Elder, we still had 22 million net new jobs. So that means NAFTA didn't outsource that much, or Clinton's economic plan was more amazing than anything  I can imagine, or both. Which is what is true. He was a true great.

      by deaniac20 on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 05:36:39 PM PDT

      •  agreed

        Clinton is an internationalist and he just continued previous policy, which Kerry is in favor of as well.  He just had a saner way of dealing with it.  It was a controlled leakage under his stewardship.  Bush 2 (heretofore refered to as "The Dunce") kicked the valve wide open but the problem was already there and furthered by Bill.  Even without "The Dunce" I think we'd have a major problem on our hands regardless of who is in office.  I think it was inevitable that it would kill high tech in this country.

        by YetiMonk on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 05:52:34 PM PDT

        •  Perot warned us about NAFTA

          The great sucking sound.

          by Moderate Vet on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 05:56:16 PM PDT

•  An interesting interview with Kevin Drum

  
  who blogs for The Washington Monthly at Political Animal
  is available here.

  
  

  by another American on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 03:07:26 PM PDT

•  Roberts sexist remark "just kidding...'

  so says partisan Linda Chavez today.HERE.  Chavez, of course, has an ax to grind. She apparently thinks Cindy should also have stayed home. LINK

  by seesdifferent on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 03:26:51 PM PDT

•  Cindy on Maher tonight...n/t

  by mattes on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:06:16 PM PDT

•  re Miller & NYT: "Punch and Judy"?

  You know, it just occurred to me that (I believe) NYT publisher Arthur Sulzberger's widely used nickname is "Punch" -- which makes the whole unseemly NYT-Miller faux heroic journalism debacle an actual "Punch and Judy Show." Yet I have seen this absolutely nowhere...have I missed something? Am I misremembering the Sulzberger nickname? Or else is the punditocracy falling down on the job????

  by pedestrian xing on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:15:53 PM PDT

  •  Atrios

    here.

    by Elwood Dowd on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:20:06 PM PDT

  •  oops

    as far as I can tell, "Punch" was current Arthur's dad, so this would be the "son of Punch, and Judy" show...(?)

    by pedestrian xing on Fri Aug 19, 2005 at 04:33:47 PM PDT

•  t